Transcript [00:00] Joel Webbon is a reformed Baptist [00:03] pastor. He refers to himself as a [00:04] Calvinist. It's a type of reformed [00:06] Christianity and he's an online [00:08] commentator who represents a growing [00:10] wing of conservative Christianity [00:13] pushing back against support for Israel. [00:16] He argues that the church has replaced [00:19] Israel in God's plan. That's what's [00:21] called supersessionism which has for [00:24] many centuries been a dominant doctrine [00:26] of of many branches of Christianity, [00:28] most of Christianity. So that's what he [00:31] argues, the supersessionist church [00:33] replacing Israel and that modern Jews [00:36] have no unique covenantal role or status [00:40] at all. His views reflect a broader [00:43] trend challenging Christian Zionism from [00:46] within the evangelical world. And the [00:49] clip I'm going to play you is Joel [00:51] Webbon having a conversation with with [00:54] um um Ben Harnwell. Ben Harnwell is a [00:57] traditional Catholic [00:59] uh unlike Webbon who's a Protestant, [01:01] who's a Calvinist. And Harnwell is a [01:03] traditional Catholic and he is a a a [01:08] part-time host, a kind of co-host uh for [01:12] Steve Bannon's War Room. He's based in [01:14] Europe and he generally covers European [01:16] issues, but he also covers issues that [01:18] relate to Catholicism. And he had Webbon [01:21] on War Room to talk about uh the the [01:25] problem of Christian Zionism as it were. [01:27] Let's take a look at this clip and then [01:29] I have a fair amount to say about it. [01:32] Now, before we get to that though [01:35] let me just um [01:37] let me just uh [01:39] make a little plug, a shameless plug for [01:42] my own um [01:43] uh you know, for my own books. So on the [01:47] Israel 365 Store website, I don't think [01:49] I've ever talked about this one, but if [01:51] you want to read some of my writings and [01:53] my writings that are my books that are [01:55] published here don't deal with politics. [01:57] I am working on a couple of other book [01:58] ideas now. Um should be you know, should [02:02] be getting on them in the coming months. [02:04] But the books that are on the Israel 365 [02:06] Store that I've written are all Bible [02:08] teachings. Uh they're they uh and they [02:11] deal with uh a lot of teachings that [02:14] relate to the nation of Israel, but also [02:15] I wrote a commentary on the Hallel [02:18] Psalms. So for Jews and Christians [02:20] alike, if you want to read my commentary [02:22] on the Hallel Psalms, so go to Israel [02:24] 365 [02:26] store.com. [02:28] Write it out as one word, Israel [02:29] 365store.com [02:31] and then click on books. [02:34] And when you go into books, you can go [02:37] down you scroll down and you'll find Cup [02:39] of Salvation. That's my commentary on [02:42] um on the Hallel Psalms. And if you [02:44] click on that book or any of my books, [02:46] at the bottom of the page you'll see an [02:48] option for my other books as well, The [02:50] Weekly Word and Verses for Zion. These [02:53] are these are my teachings. So if you're [02:55] interested in more of my biblical [02:57] teachings, please go over to [02:59] Israel365store.com [03:02] and browse around there. Lots of great [03:03] products on that site. [03:06] Okay, I think I'm allowed an occasional [03:07] plug for my own writings. So here's Ben [03:10] Harnwell and Joel Webbon in [03:12] conversation. [03:15] I'm delighted that we've got Pastor Joel [03:17] Webbon on the show who's the [03:19] founder of Right Response Ministries. [03:22] And the reason we asked Pastor Webbon to [03:24] come on the show is last week Senator [03:28] Cruz [03:30] um shared an article. Many people will [03:32] have seen this. It's basically lit up [03:34] everyone in the sector. They're they're [03:36] um [03:37] their Twitter [03:39] algorithms lit up with this. And he said [03:41] to Senator Cruz, "Read every word of [03:44] this. It's the best and most [03:45] comprehensive explanation of what we're [03:47] fighting." And he the tweet him his [03:51] tweet had 3 million [03:53] visualizations. The article he was [03:56] pushing out had I think 5 million or so [03:59] um visualizations and it it basically [04:02] got everyone talking about [04:07] for some corners of evangelicalism, the [04:10] the idea that traditional [04:12] Catholics are plotting a takeover of of [04:16] the American state. But that's that's [04:18] not really what I want to discuss in [04:21] that because what really interested me [04:23] is the standing assumption and I think [04:25] this came through very clearly [04:28] that the author's principal [04:30] preoccupation was that American [04:33] evangelicalism [04:35] might be losing its grip [04:39] on Zionism, on the pro [04:43] Israel state stance which is subsumed a [04:46] huge section of contemporary American [04:49] evangelicalism. Um and I wanted to dig [04:53] into that because it wasn't always so. [04:55] And Pastor Joel Webbon has been active [04:59] on this issue in social media. I thought [05:01] he would have interesting things to say, [05:03] especially to our largely evangelical [05:05] audience. Pastor Webbon, thank you very [05:07] much indeed for coming on the show. Um [05:10] tell me if you wouldn't mind [05:12] in your own words then um about this [05:15] wider debate. Why are some [05:18] dispensationalist [05:20] evangelicals concerned [05:23] that [05:25] e- the evangelical institution, if I can [05:27] use that word, the evangelical church is [05:30] um [05:31] grip on the narrative, the pro-Zionist [05:35] narrative might be slipping. [05:38] Yeah. [05:39] Um Zionism is uh dispensational Zionism [05:43] I should say is it's a very modern uh [05:46] notion. This is it's it's not just that [05:49] it's oh well this is what Protestants [05:51] have always believed. Um no. [05:53] You know, at this point most people are [05:55] probably aware of the Scofield Study [05:58] Bible, you know, and Joseph Darby and [06:00] these guys that came in uh the [06:02] mid-1800s. [06:04] Uh dispensationalism, [06:05] dispensational Zionism is about 150 [06:09] years old at this point and so it's very [06:11] modern. Uh whereas the Protestant [06:12] Reformation tracks back for uh 500 [06:15] years. And so when you look at Martin [06:17] Luther, you look at John Calvin, you [06:18] look at Zwingli, you look at all these, [06:20] Jonathan Edwards, you know, any of the [06:22] the Protestant reformers who outlined [06:25] the the Protestant position, uh none of [06:28] them were dispensationalists. And and to [06:30] break those terms down just briefly [06:33] dispensational [06:34] Zionism um is the idea that all of these [06:38] Old Testament promises that we find in [06:40] the Bible for Israel that are physical [06:42] promises, promises about the land being [06:46] recaptured or or a temple being rebuilt [06:49] and these kinds of things um that that [06:52] that these promises are are meant to be [06:55] understood. They've either already in a [06:57] preterist, meaning past, the Latin for [06:59] past have been past fulfilled or if [07:02] there are any future instances of these [07:04] promises that are still yet to be [07:06] fulfilled, they have a spiritual um [07:09] fulfillment, not a physical fulfillment. [07:11] So all of the the Catholics and all of [07:14] the Protestants until again very [07:16] recently, the last hundred 150 years, [07:19] understood that whether or not Israel [07:21] was a nation-state in the year of our [07:23] Lord 2026 or not um had no had no [07:27] bearing on whether or not biblical [07:29] prophecy will be fulfilled and the [07:32] return of Christ. But somewhere along [07:34] the line uh there became this very [07:36] wooden hermeneutic, this very literal [07:39] physical interpretation of Old Testament [07:42] prophecies that essentially uh got [07:45] evangelicals, uh which is a subset of [07:48] Protestants but a large subset, to [07:50] believe that Christ can't actually come [07:53] in his final physical return that that [07:55] can't take place. What every Christian [07:57] desires and wants to see that um that [08:00] that won't actually happen until the [08:03] nation of state of Israel has been [08:05] reestablished um and Israel widens in [08:08] its territory, achieves uh hegemony and [08:11] all the the the boundaries, Mike [08:13] Huckabee is saying this, Ted Cruz is [08:15] saying this, the the old boundaries all [08:17] the way from the river to the sea has to [08:19] belong to Israel, the Temple Mount and a [08:22] new temple actually fashioned and then [08:24] we'll get the return of Christ. That's [08:26] not how the Protestants historically saw [08:28] it. That's certainly not how Catholics [08:30] have seen it. That is a modern [08:31] innovation uh but many evangelicals have [08:34] fallen for it. [08:37] Tell Okay, so so [08:38] Okay. So I I want to I want to talk [08:41] about what he just said here. [08:43] He what he has just said, what Joel [08:45] Webbon just said, is that [08:47] all Protestants and Catholics until very [08:49] recently believed that the promises made [08:52] to Israel in the Bible from a Christian [08:54] perspective are [08:56] if there's any future for them, it's [08:58] entirely meant to be understood [08:59] spiritually. There it's not meant to be [09:01] physical. Uh he says that this Christian [09:04] Zionism is a result of [09:05] dispensationalists who come along later [09:07] and none of the Protestant reformers [09:09] were dispensationalists. [09:12] So [09:13] here's the issue with what with what [09:15] Webbon is saying. He either and and I'm [09:18] a Jew, okay? I'm a rabbi uh who just [09:22] happens to uh deal a lot in [09:25] Jewish-Christian relations. Um I've I've [09:28] done a fair amount of readings in [09:30] Christian theology. And um I'm I'm not [09:35] sure if he's simply ignorant of what the [09:37] reformers actually said about this issue [09:40] or or if he's uh or if he's offuscating. [09:43] But I'm going to I'm going to give my [09:45] take both on the Catholic side of things [09:47] and on the Protestant side of things. [09:49] And you know, because here you have this [09:51] is a conversation between a Catholic and [09:54] and a Protestant that we were you're [09:55] watching. [09:56] So let's start with [09:59] with you you know going back in time. [10:01] Let's go back you know to the Catholics. [10:04] So, the reason that the Catholic Church [10:07] embraced this idea of supersessionism [10:09] that the church had replaced Israel [10:12] really goes back it goes it was [10:15] mentioned by the church fathers by John [10:17] Chrysostom and by and by Justin Martyr [10:20] that the Jews had lost their covenant [10:21] but it didn't become mainstream church [10:23] doctrine really until Augustine. Uh [10:26] until Augustine of Hippo. And in his [10:29] magnum opus in his book City of God he [10:32] writes that the Jews were like Cain. [10:36] Okay, he writes this in in uh [10:40] in uh in book 15 [10:42] um of the City of God. He writes that [10:44] the Jews were like Cain who killed his [10:46] brother Abel and therefore were marked. [10:48] He says quote Cain was marked so that no [10:51] one should kill him [10:53] and thus that people meaning the Jews [10:55] have been marked not slain but dispersed [10:59] not slain but dispersed. So, Augustine [11:01] explains here that the Jews are [11:03] dispersed in exile through the lands and [11:06] thus quote by their own scriptures are a [11:09] testimony to us. Let me explain. [11:12] And I made a video about this on the [11:14] Israel 365 News YouTube channel [11:16] recently. You may have seen that. So, [11:18] some of what I'm saying is in that video [11:20] as well. You might want to go watch it. [11:22] In other words, what Augustine is saying [11:24] is that the Jews are are meant to exist [11:28] forever but scattered powerless [11:32] and serving as a witness to Christian [11:34] truth. Okay, elsewhere in the City of [11:36] God in book 18 in chapter 46 he comes [11:39] back to the topic of the Jews and there [11:42] he frames the topic around a verse in [11:44] Psalms. And here's what he writes there. [11:46] Quote a prophecy about this thing [11:49] meaning this whole issue of the Jews was [11:52] set before in Psalms which they meaning [11:54] the Jews also read. [11:57] And he quotes from Psalm 59 verse 11 [12:01] according to the Christian numbering [12:02] verse 12 according to Jewish numbering, [12:05] okay? So, Psalm 59 verse 11. [12:09] Um [12:10] and here's the quote. [12:12] My God has shown me concerning mine [12:15] enemies that you shall not slay them [12:18] lest they should at last forget your law [12:21] disperse them in your might. So, don't [12:24] slay them disperse them. That's what we [12:25] heard him say before. So, he he ties it [12:27] to this verse in Psalms and Augustine [12:29] uses this verse to say that it's [12:32] referring to the Jews that they're not [12:34] supposed to be slain. You're not [12:36] supposed to kill them but they are [12:37] supposed to be dispersed. [12:39] And he says at the end of that passage [12:42] that they're supposed to be dispersed [12:44] because if they were only in their own [12:46] land and not everywhere [12:48] certainly the church which is everywhere [12:50] could not have them as a witness to all [12:53] Christians of what happens if you reject [12:55] Jesus. [12:57] Okay, let me sum this up just in case [12:59] you're a little confused. Let me sum [13:00] this up and we'll move on to the next [13:01] point. What Augustine posited was that [13:04] the Jewish people are meant to exist [13:06] perpetually in exile scattered and [13:09] powerless wherever Christians are so [13:12] that they can serve as a testimony to [13:14] what happens [13:17] or what the punishment is [13:19] for rejecting Jesus. Okay, this was the [13:21] dominant Catholic theology for [13:22] centuries. This framework held for over [13:25] a thousand years. [13:27] But the problem is that it only explains [13:29] a world in which Jews are in exile. [13:32] The Jews have if the Jews have no [13:34] sovereignty and they're scattered [13:35] everywhere and they're oppressed and [13:37] dependent on other people that then [13:40] Augustine's model works and this is [13:42] called witness theology. That's what [13:44] it's known as. The problem with this [13:46] model is that it only works if the Jews [13:48] are scattered and powerless and today [13:50] they're not. Today the Jewish people are [13:52] back in our land. We've been gathered [13:54] from the four corners of the earth as [13:55] the Bible foretells many many times. [13:58] We're sovereign. We have power. So, in [14:00] other words, the reality on the ground [14:02] no longer fits Augustine's theology. [14:04] Another way to say it is that if [14:06] Augustine lived in a time with a with a [14:09] nation state of of Jews in the land of [14:12] Israel with millions of Jews who were [14:14] gathered from the four corners of the [14:16] earth in a prosperous economy with their [14:17] own army and government etc. He never [14:20] would have said what he said. Obviously, [14:22] it wouldn't have made any sense. It [14:23] wouldn't have it it the the theological [14:26] issue he was trying to solve which is [14:27] why are the Jews still around [14:30] he wouldn't have solved it if by saying [14:32] something that made no sense with [14:34] reality. [14:35] So, what's happened now is that [14:37] traditional Catholics [14:40] take this idea of Augustine that the [14:42] Jews are have lost their covenant and [14:44] are going to remain in exile forever and [14:46] they've turned it into this this axiom [14:49] of unassailable truth this rule, right? [14:53] But it was really just a way of [14:54] explaining reality. [14:56] Now, the official Catholic Church its [14:58] actual leadership has been grappling [15:00] with this question for decades almost [15:02] since the founding of the state of [15:03] Israel and that's what's led to numerous [15:06] pronouncements starting with the Second [15:08] Vatican Council in 1965. [15:11] But it's also accelerated in recent [15:12] years. [15:14] Meaning the Vatican's dealing with the [15:15] problem. Let me let me explain again [15:18] very simply. [15:21] When you're working on a theological [15:22] question, what you're trying to do is [15:24] understand God. [15:26] Okay? [15:28] We have the text of the Bible which is [15:29] the word of God. We're scriptural [15:31] religions Judaism and Christianity. We [15:33] believe that our texts are divinely [15:35] inspired. So, we have the texts but they [15:39] can be interpreted different ways for [15:40] sure. [15:41] And then we look at the world. [15:43] Augustine himself referred to theology [15:45] as quote faith seeking understanding not [15:49] achieving understanding seeking [15:51] understanding. We know that at some [15:52] point God is unfathomable. God God [15:54] himself says in the book of Isaiah or [15:57] the words the word of God in the book of [15:58] Isaiah my my ways are not your ways my [16:01] thoughts are not your thoughts. [16:03] Or my the other way my thoughts are not [16:05] your thoughts my ways are not your ways. [16:07] What a theologian always is doing is [16:09] they're trying to figure figure God out. [16:12] They're trying to look at reality look [16:14] at the word of God and and make sense of [16:15] it and that's what Augustine was doing. [16:17] He's looking he sees the Jews in exile. [16:19] He sees they're still around. They [16:20] rejected Jesus. What is their role? What [16:22] is the what's the deal with them? And he [16:24] comes up with this idea of witness [16:26] theology that they're Jews are supposed [16:28] to be in exile and and and this tiny [16:30] people scattered and suffering which [16:33] serves as a witness to Christians. [16:35] Okay, that's that's the [16:38] that's the basics of of Augustine. [16:41] Okay? [16:42] And again, that held for that became the [16:45] dominant doctrine of the church and it's [16:47] the doctrine that people like Ben [16:48] Harnwell um [16:51] the people like Ben Harnwell inherited [16:53] from their ancestors. So, there's a [16:55] certain piety in this, right? They want [16:57] you know part of what you saw in that [16:59] clip is that they were you know part of [17:01] their dismissiveness of Christian [17:03] Zionism is that it's new. Okay, we'll [17:05] get to that soon. [17:07] So, [17:10] the problem with the Augustinian [17:12] doctrine that I've just laid out this [17:13] witness theology is that the modern [17:15] state of Israel makes the doctrine [17:16] incoherent and that is what has led the [17:19] Vatican to adjust their theology to the [17:21] new reality. You see this very clearly [17:24] 50 years after Vatican II. Vatican II [17:26] was 1965 and then in 2015 the Vatican [17:29] issued a 50th anniversary document [17:33] and uh Vatican II and here's a quote [17:36] from that document. This is an official [17:38] Vatican document from 2015. Quote from [17:41] the Christian confession that there can [17:43] only be one path to salvation it does [17:46] not in any way follow that the Jews are [17:49] excluded from God's salvation. Meaning [17:51] even though there's only one path to [17:52] salvation the Jews are still not [17:54] excluded from salvation. Hmm, how is [17:56] that? God has never revoked his [17:59] covenant. God has never revoked his [18:01] covenant. [18:04] For the gifts and the call of God are [18:06] irrevocable. That's a quote from the [18:08] book of Romans chapter 11 verse 29. [18:12] That the and then it goes on. That the [18:14] Jews are participants in God's salvation [18:18] is theologically unquestionable. [18:21] How can that be possible? So, the [18:24] document then asks the question meaning [18:25] the document says [18:27] um God never revoked his covenant with [18:29] the Jews but there is the Christian [18:31] confession the Christian belief that [18:33] there's only one path to salvation and [18:35] that's through Jesus. How does this [18:37] work? [18:38] Right? If there's only one way to [18:40] salvation and it's through Jesus how can [18:42] the Jews still have salvation? [18:46] And he says and [18:48] and and then the document goes on to say [18:50] how that can be possible remains an [18:53] unfathomable divine mystery. [18:57] Okay? Now, by calling it a mystery here [19:00] it's not they're not just throwing up [19:01] their hands and saying oh gosh we don't [19:04] understand it or we've reached a [19:05] contradiction. [19:07] They're actually referencing the book of [19:10] Romans in in chapter 11 same chapter [19:13] there a few verses later chapter 11 [19:15] verse 33. Let me show you that, okay? [19:18] Um so here here's Romans chapter 11 [19:22] and he's talking about the Jews. This [19:23] whole chapter is about the relationship [19:25] of Gentile Christians to Jews and to the [19:28] Jewish covenant. [19:30] Um he talks about the Jews not having [19:32] belief. So, [19:34] let's remember this is explicitly about [19:37] Jews who've [19:38] who've rejected Jesus, okay? So, it says [19:41] from the standpoint of the gospel they [19:43] are enemies [19:45] right? Because because the Jews reject [19:47] the gospel for your sake but from the [19:50] standpoint of God's choice they are [19:52] beloved for the sake of their fathers, [19:54] for the gifts and the calling of God are [19:56] irrevocable. [19:59] Okay? So again, he's talking about Jews [20:00] who have rejected Jesus, not Jews who [20:03] have accepted Jesus. And he's saying [20:04] that their gifts and their calling are [20:06] eternal and irrevocable. They have a [20:08] special status. They They have and and [20:11] they're still beloved of God. [20:14] And then [20:16] how does he solve the obvious [20:17] contradiction? He says, "Oh, the depths [20:20] of the riches both of the wisdom and [20:23] knowledge of God. How unsearchable are [20:25] his judgments and unfathomable is ways. [20:29] For who has known the mind of the Lord [20:32] or who became his counselor or who has [20:35] first [20:37] And here by the way, he's he's citing [20:39] um he's citing Job. "Or who has first [20:42] given to him that might be paid back to [20:44] him again?" [20:46] Okay, so what he's saying he ends off [20:48] after contemplating this this problem of [20:51] the Jews being the enemies of the [20:53] gospel, but still beloved of God and [20:55] they still have their covenant, they [20:57] still have their gifts and their [20:58] calling. [21:00] He says, "It's a mystery. We don't [21:02] understand God." But apparently people [21:04] like Joel Weathers have no problem uh [21:07] fully understanding God, right? Oh, did [21:09] I not show that to you on the page? I [21:11] might not have I might not have showed [21:12] you the the text. Let me Let me do this. [21:15] Um let me make this a little more clear [21:18] for you, okay? [21:20] Here. [21:23] Um [21:24] Let me show that to you again. All [21:25] right, we'll just do this real quick so [21:27] we don't make the video too long. Right [21:29] here. [21:30] It's This is uh chapter 11 verses [21:34] um [21:35] what I just read to you was verses 28, [21:37] 29 [21:39] and then and then 33, 34. Okay, that's [21:43] what That's where this passage is if you [21:45] want to show it to someone and raise the [21:47] issue to them. Okay? [21:50] So So uh [21:53] So this is a remarkable statement by the [21:54] Vatican. [21:56] Right? Basically saying that [21:58] this is this is very different than [22:00] Augustine. Let's put it that way. After [22:01] Vatican II, though even before this [22:03] statement in 2015, Pope John Paul II [22:06] continued this theological adjustment. [22:08] During a 1980 visit to the synagogue in [22:11] Mainz, he called the Jews {quote} the [22:13] people of God of the old covenant which [22:15] has never been revoked by God. And in [22:19] 1997, he referred to the Jews as this [22:22] people that continues to be the people [22:24] of the covenant. The Lord is faithful to [22:27] his covenant. {end quote} And then in [22:29] 2010, we have this statement from Pope [22:31] Benedict, viewed as a traditionalist. [22:34] {quote} The people of Israel have been [22:36] liberated many times from the hands of [22:39] their enemies and in times of [22:41] anti-Semitism. [22:42] In the dramatic moments of the show, [22:45] the hand of the almighty has supported [22:48] and guided them. The favor of the God of [22:50] the covenant has always accompanied [22:52] them, giving them strength to overcome [22:55] their trials. [22:58] To this divine loving attention, your [23:00] Jewish community present in the city of [23:02] Rome for more than 2,000 years can also [23:04] render testimony. This was in a speech [23:06] that he gave [23:07] that he gave there. And he also [23:08] mentioned the Jewish people having a [23:09] covenant [23:11] uh numerous other times. I'm not going [23:12] to give you even more citations of this. [23:15] So you have Pope John Paul II and [23:16] Benedict referring to the Jews still [23:18] having a covenant. And this is because [23:21] in the post [23:23] uh [23:24] in in the post declaration of the state [23:26] of Israel or success of the state of [23:27] Israel world, [23:29] there needs to be an adjustment in [23:30] Christian theology. They understood [23:32] this. [23:33] Now, let's go over to Weathers' comment [23:35] about Protestant reformers. Because You [23:37] notice he said there that all the [23:39] Protestant reformers rejected this [23:40] stuff. None of them saw a physical [23:43] future for the for the promises of [23:45] Israel, a return to the land. [23:48] Uh you know, they they didn't view this [23:50] as literal. Right? That's what he was [23:52] saying there. And [23:53] and of course they weren't [23:54] dispensationalists because Christian [23:56] Zionism is just this later [23:57] dispensationalist thing. Well, [24:00] um Now, he's right about Calvin. He says [24:03] he's a Calvinist. Calvin was a [24:04] supersessionist. Supersessionist again [24:06] meaning that he believed that the church [24:08] replaced Israel. But let's see what the [24:09] other leading reformers had to say on [24:11] this topic. Um and I'm including [24:14] reformers that he himself mentioned. [24:15] None of them were dispensationalists by [24:17] the way. Let's start with Luther. Now, [24:19] Luther hated the Jews. He wrote an [24:21] entire book about um [24:24] uh [24:25] called On the Jews and their lies [24:27] against the you know, which was against [24:28] the Jews. [24:30] But in a different work in a different [24:32] work, he said the following. Listen to [24:34] this quote. [24:36] "Let them go to the land and to [24:37] Jerusalem. [24:39] Raise up the priesthood, principality, [24:42] and the law so that they again become [24:44] Jews and possess the land. If that [24:47] happened, they should soon see us on [24:49] their heels and also become Jews." Now, [24:52] Luther was being sarcastic. He was a [24:54] supersessionist, but he was basically [24:56] saying but he was grounding his [24:57] supersessionism in the reality around [25:00] him just like Augustine. He was saying, [25:02] "They're never going home. If they go [25:05] home, of course Yeah, we'll become Jews [25:07] too if they go home. If they go home and [25:08] actually reconstitute themselves as a [25:10] nation in their land in Jerusalem, [25:13] >> [laughter] [25:13] >> uh [25:14] we'll become Jews too." In other words, [25:15] he was saying that it's absurd. Now, [25:19] would Luther have said that had the [25:20] state of Israel been around in his time? [25:22] Of course not. [25:24] But let's get to people who were more [25:25] serious, who weren't being sarcastic. [25:28] Increase Mather in his 1669 [25:31] work The Mystery of Israel's Salvation, [25:34] referring to that line in Romans that [25:37] how Israel is saved is a mystery, he [25:39] writes {quote} [25:41] "The Israelites shall again possess the [25:44] land promised unto their father [25:47] Abraham." Okay? Mather warned against a [25:50] supersessionist spiritualization of the [25:53] promises made to Israel. [25:55] {quote} Why should we unnecessarily [25:58] refuse literal interpretations? Now, [26:00] Mather was not a a dispensationalist. He [26:01] just believed that the literal meaning [26:04] of the Bible's promises is real. [26:07] At the turn of the 18th century, [26:10] the Dutch Reformed theologian Wilhelmus [26:13] à Brakel [26:15] published a four-volume systematic [26:17] theology. [26:18] And he asked the following question, [26:20] "Will the Jewish nation be gathered [26:22] together again from all the regions of [26:25] the world and from all the nations of [26:26] the earth among which they have been [26:28] dispersed? Will they come to and dwell [26:32] in Canaan and all the lands promised to [26:34] Abraham? And will Jerusalem be rebuilt? [26:37] We believe that these events will [26:41] transpire." This is a late 17th, early [26:44] 18th century, 1600s, early 1700s. This [26:48] is a Reformed Dutch Reformed theologian [26:50] from that time period. Long before the [26:53] the [26:54] modern Christian Zionism of the [26:56] dispensationalists. Or how about [26:58] Jonathan Edwards, who Weathers [26:59] mentioned? [27:01] Weathers mentioned Edwards by name [27:03] saying that he didn't believe in this [27:04] stuff. [27:05] Jonathan Edwards, perhaps the greatest [27:07] Reformed theologian after Calvin, [27:09] rejected Calvin's supersessionism for [27:12] riding roughshod over scripture's plain [27:15] sense. He wrote in his blank Bible [27:18] that just as the restoration of an [27:20] individual at first involves only his [27:23] soul, but then later his body at the [27:25] general resurrection, so too, and now [27:27] I'm quoting Edwards, [27:29] "not only shall the spiritual state of [27:32] the Jews be hereafter restored, but [27:34] their external state as a nation in [27:38] their own land shall be restored." [27:42] That's Jonathan Edwards. [27:44] Now, Hornwell and Weathers are correct [27:46] that Christian Zionism is fairly new. [27:48] It's a It's It's a fairly new as a [27:50] widespread phenomenon. As a widespread [27:52] phenomenon, of course it is. You know [27:53] why? Because the state of Israel is [27:55] fairly new. [27:57] This goes back to the whole issue of [27:59] what theology is. If we're trying to [28:01] understand God [28:04] and we come up with some theological [28:06] explanation for how for how God runs the [28:08] world, looking at scripture, looking at [28:10] reality, and we come up with an [28:11] explanation for it, but then God makes a [28:13] big move [28:14] and things change, of course we have to [28:16] adjust our theology. Especially when it [28:19] when it comes into conflict directly [28:21] with what we had posited. [28:23] You see, that's what the Catholic Church [28:26] the official Catholic Church is doing. [28:28] That's what Christian Zionists have been [28:30] doing. That's what they're doing. [28:32] They're looking at the reality and [28:34] saying, "Wait a second. Those old [28:36] teachings about how the people of Israel [28:39] are never going to go back, they just [28:40] don't work. They don't make any sense." [28:44] So then you have people like Weathers [28:45] and Hornwell who sit back and go, "Well, [28:47] you know, the traditional Christian [28:49] belief is of course that none of you [28:51] know, isn't isn't like any of this. And [28:53] we're going to stick to tradition." [28:56] We're going to stick to tradition. [29:01] There's a humility [29:03] that the Catholic Church is showing. [29:04] There's a humility that Christian [29:06] Zionists are showing [29:08] by saying, "Hey, wait a second. God has [29:09] a say. [29:11] God has a say." [29:13] And [29:15] look, bottom line is this. If anyone [29:16] watching this video is a [29:18] supersessionist, if you're on the other [29:20] side, if you don't like what I'm saying, [29:21] just please in the comments, answer the [29:24] question for me. [29:26] Do you believe [29:28] that Augustine [29:30] would have said his witness theology if [29:33] he were alive today to see the modern [29:34] state of Israel? And if you believe that [29:36] he would have, you're a fool. Makes no [29:38] sense. [29:39] Or let me ask the question this way. [29:41] According to Augustine, the Jews are [29:43] supposed to stay in exile forever to [29:45] serve as a witness to the Christians. [29:46] Okay. [29:48] So, today there's a modern state of [29:50] Israel. [29:51] So, what a what a lot of what a lot of [29:53] these traditional Catholics are doing is [29:54] they're saying that uh well, it just has [29:56] no religious significance at all. Okay. [29:58] Are the Jews still in exile bearing [30:00] witness [30:01] suffering, persecuted, [30:04] wandering in exile? Are they? [30:07] So, you have some who are actually [30:08] denying that the Jews of today are the [30:09] Jews, but that doesn't help them either. [30:11] Then who are the Jews in exile [30:13] fulfilling the witness theology? You You [30:15] get what I'm saying? It's incoherent. [30:17] And Augustine would have been humble [30:20] because that's who Augustine was, and he [30:21] would have looked at reality and said, [30:23] "Okay, this is the wrong theory." He [30:25] wouldn't have come up with it to begin [30:26] with. [30:27] So, and and when people like Webin say [30:29] that Christian Zionism is brand new and [30:32] that the reformers never, you know, [30:34] never thought this way at all, I just [30:36] shared you the quotes. [30:38] I'd love to hear a response. Usually all [30:41] I get is dismissiveness or anger or [30:44] people just saying that they don't want [30:45] to hear what I have to say. What is a [30:46] Jew doing talking to us about Christian [30:48] theology? [30:49] That's generally what I get. Um [30:52] and uh I would love to hear an answer. [30:54] You know, and to those who say a Jew [30:56] shouldn't be talking about Christian [30:57] theology, you know, these Christian [30:59] theologians like Webin have no problem [31:01] saying all sorts of things about the [31:02] Jews, [31:03] about who we are and our status and [31:05] whether we have a covenant and [31:07] they have no problem making [31:08] pronouncements about us. [31:09] So, excuse me. I I also have some [31:12] questions for you. Okay? There you go. [31:15] So, that's my take on this interesting [31:17] phenomenon of the resurgence of [31:20] supersessionism as a way of rejecting [31:22] support for Israel in the Christian [31:24] world under the guise of piety and and [31:27] uh and and religious obedience to [31:29] inherited doctrines when it's really an [31:32] arrogance of not allowing God to have a [31:35] say. [31:37] Because God has spoken.
