Transcript [00:00] In Jerusalem, there were a number of [00:01] Christian Zionist organizations [00:03] operating. And this is before Christians [00:05] United for Israel and before some of you [00:07] know before Christian Zionism became a [00:09] very mainstream movement. It was still [00:11] quite small. Uh and uh and a number of [00:14] activists from these Christian [00:16] organizations that were in Jerusalem [00:18] walked into our office one day and [00:20] introduced themselves and they said, you [00:22] know, we love your cause. We you we love [00:23] the idea of helping missing Israeli [00:25] soldiers. Um and uh and we'd like to [00:28] help out. And I and I had never I'm [00:30] going to be perfectly frank, Peter, [00:32] other than a few people I met in [00:33] university who weren't Jewish, but they [00:35] weren't really faithful Christians. They [00:38] were just people who weren't Jewish. Uh [00:40] I I I never had any interaction with [00:42] people who were Christian. I mean, [00:45] that's why I started off talking about [00:46] how insulated I was. And I was not sure [00:49] what to make of this. I knew that [00:50] Christians wanted to convert us. Uh so I [00:53] assumed they all had some nefarious [00:54] motives. And like most Jews, I didn't [00:56] know the difference between a [00:57] Pentecostal evangelical and a medieval [01:00] Catholic. I'd know most your audience [01:03] must understand. Most Jews have zero [01:05] clue as little clue as you have about [01:08] Jewish theology and different [01:09] denominations in Judaism. Think of it [01:12] that way because often Christians are [01:13] shocked that Jews don't know much about [01:15] Christianity. But it's just I mean, [01:16] think of how much you know about [01:18] Judaism. Um or most of the people in [01:20] your audience. I didn't know anything [01:21] and I didn't know what to make of this [01:23] and I didn't know what their motives [01:24] were. Was there some nefarious, you [01:26] know, motive involved. Uh, but I went [01:30] down that path and at the same time as I [01:32] was doing this political activist work, [01:34] being the son of a rabbi and being [01:36] someone who was uh who was always quite [01:39] I'm I'm not saying this to toot my own [01:41] horn. I'm saying this for context. I was [01:43] always quite advanced in my Judeaic [01:45] studies. Even though I I wasn't sure [01:46] what I wanted to do with myself. I was [01:48] just a political activist and a student [01:49] organizer. Uh I I was always studying at [01:53] a very high level, studying Talmud, [01:55] studying rabbitic texts, studying [01:56] scripture, uh theology. U most of the [01:59] adults in my life when I was growing up [02:01] assumed I'd become a rabbi even though I [02:03] resisted it. Being the son of a rabbi, [02:05] that's natural. And uh and what happened [02:08] was I started looking at I started [02:11] spending time with these Christians and [02:12] I started realizing their sincerity and [02:16] and I started putting this in the [02:18] context of my own esquetology because as [02:21] a religious Zionist Jew, our [02:24] understanding of the state of Israel is [02:26] very simple. For 2,000 years, we have [02:30] been praying scattered in the exile for [02:33] the fulfillment of the pro the most [02:35] repeated prophecy in the Bible, which is [02:38] the ultimate in gathering of the Jewish [02:40] people to our land after a lengthy exile [02:43] scattered and persecuted around the [02:45] earth. First first stated by Moses in [02:48] Deuteronomy 30, even if you are [02:50] scattered to the ends of the heavens, [02:52] from there the Lord your God will gather [02:53] you in and he will bring you back to the [02:55] land of your forefathers and you will [02:56] take possession of it and you will [02:58] become more numerous and more prosperous [03:00] than your ancestors. These are [03:01] prophecies that have been fulfilled in [03:03] the 20th century. In the 21st century, [03:05] there are more Jews living in Israel [03:06] today than ever before. We were [03:08] scattered to the ends of the heavens. We [03:10] have taken possession of the land and we [03:12] are more numerous and more prosperous in [03:14] this land than the Jewish people ever [03:15] were. These are the these are facts. So [03:17] the way we see things is very [03:18] straightforward. We've been looking [03:19] forward to this for thousands of years. [03:21] While the and we'll get to this a little [03:23] later in the conversation, Peter, while [03:24] the Christian world was telling us based [03:26] on Augustine and Luther and others that [03:29] we were never going to go home and that [03:30] we had lost our covenant, but the Jewish [03:31] people are stubborn and we stuck to it [03:34] and ultimately God brought us back. So [03:36] we see things very simply. And as I got [03:38] to know these Christians, I started [03:40] realizing that they see the state of [03:41] Israel exactly as I do. They see it as [03:44] the biblically foretold in gathering of [03:45] the nation of Israel. I started learning [03:47] about different strain different uh [03:50] strains of theology within Christianity. [03:52] Different ways of of coping with the [03:55] rebirth of the state of Israel. And I [03:56] say coping with it because there are [03:58] parts of the Christian world that are [03:59] having a hard time coping with it. [04:00] They're, you know, they're clinging to [04:02] certain theological suppositions that [04:05] that are simply anacronistic at this [04:07] point. But as as I experienced these [04:09] Christians and spent more time with [04:10] them, I started speaking at events with [04:12] them, promoting our cause, working with [04:14] them on some projects, um I was [04:16] interpreting everything through this [04:18] esqueological lens. And I and I was [04:20] saying to myself, wait a second, all [04:21] those prophecies in the Bible about the [04:23] redemption of Israel, if you read them [04:25] to the end, they always involve the [04:27] nations. Whether it's Psalms saying, you [04:30] know, when the uh Psalm 122 saying that [04:33] when the when the when the uh exiles [04:36] return, it will be said among the [04:38] nations, God has done great things for [04:40] them. Or Psalm 117, praise the Lord, all [04:43] nations. Exalt him all peoples for his [04:45] kindness upon us. Why why would the [04:48] be praising God for being good to [04:50] the Jews? What what is Psalms talking [04:52] about? It's clear in the Bible, you [04:55] know, and and culminating in Isaiah who [04:57] says that when we rebuild the temple in [04:59] Jerusalem, it is meant to be a house of [05:01] prayer for all nations and on and on and [05:04] on. And I started it's one of these [05:06] things where because the Jewish people [05:08] spent centuries and centuries no one was [05:11] listening to what we had to say. We were [05:13] persecuted. Everyone was telling us that [05:15] we had lost our covenant. It's very easy [05:17] to simply circle the wagons and say, [05:19] "Forget the world. It doesn't matter [05:21] what they think of us. And and that's [05:23] why if Jews have the attitude of we [05:25] don't care what the world thinks, which [05:26] a lot of people see in a lot of Jews. We [05:30] come by it honestly. I mean, it's, you [05:32] know, there's only so long you can go [05:33] trying to please a world that, you know, [05:35] that, you know, that doesn't care. So, [05:37] Jews got used to the fact that the world [05:39] didn't care what we had to say and and [05:41] and and didn't really like us very much. [05:43] And that was the attitude that that I [05:45] had also. And when you live in that [05:46] space, even though it's right there in [05:49] the scripture, that our ultimate purpose [05:51] is to bring about a worldwide movement [05:55] of of knowledge of God so that knowledge [05:57] of God shall cover the earth like water [05:59] covers the sea. That's the mission of [06:00] Abraham. That's the mission of the [06:02] kingdom of priests, the nation of [06:04] Israel, to bring knowledge of God to the [06:06] whole world and to be and to be the [06:08] vehicle for God to show his do his [06:10] dominion over history by carrying out [06:12] this miraculous history. the universal [06:16] aspect of the purpose of Judaism and the [06:18] Jewish people was something that I was [06:20] just trained not to see. And once I saw [06:23] it and and and I saw it because of my [06:26] experience with these Christians, I [06:28] started to see myself through their [06:29] eyes. It became um a burning passion. It [06:33] became a life's mission for me. I [06:34] started going deeper and deeper into [06:37] Jewish into classical Jewish theology [06:39] and what the what the medieval Jewish [06:40] theologians said about Christianity. And [06:42] there were some some texts there that [06:44] I'd never seen before, even though [06:45] they're written by prominent Jewish [06:46] theologians because they've just been [06:48] swept under the rug talking about how [06:51] Christianity ultimately will serve the [06:53] purpose of educating the world about our [06:55] Bible and that will ultimately bring [06:57] Jews and Christians into into a into a [07:00] kind of union at the end of days. These [07:01] are things that were written a thousand [07:03] years ago by Jewish scholars who who we [07:05] still rever today. And it became uh uh [07:08] the an animating principle of my own [07:10] personal theology. And then I went into [07:14] a career in rabbitics. I led a synagogue [07:17] and I as a as a 28-year-old rabbi, I [07:19] surprised my congregation, this young [07:21] rabbi, by telling them that I plan to [07:23] invite Christians to the classes that we [07:26] give at the synagogue because if Isaiah [07:28] if the temple is supposed to be a house [07:29] of prayer for all nations, then our [07:30] synagogue should be no different. They [07:32] were a little shocked, but they got used [07:33] to it and they loved it. And I had [07:35] Christians coming to the synagogue to [07:36] study together with Jews. That was part [07:38] of my ravenet. And then I and then I ran [07:40] a um what's called a yeshiva which is [07:42] like a seminary or rabbitical school [07:44] even though it's not for ordination. [07:45] It's like a post high school higher [07:47] study program for Orthodox Jewish kids. [07:50] Um and and I ran and I was the dean of [07:53] that school for 11 years. And you know [07:56] mostly teaching Talmud and running a [07:58] curriculum and running a staff. But in [08:01] my theology lectures to my students, I [08:03] talked about Christianity all the time [08:04] and the importance of the alliance and [08:06] the importance of understanding the [08:07] changes that have taken place and that [08:09] and that the Christians who slaughtered [08:11] Jews in the Crusades or tortured them in [08:13] the Spanish Inquisition don't really [08:15] have much relationship or anything to do [08:17] with theologically with the Christians [08:19] today who are opening their eyes and [08:21] realizing that the prophecies of [08:23] Deuteronomy and Isaiah and Zephaniah and [08:25] Zechariah are coming true and are [08:27] supportive of Israel and they shouldn't [08:28] be afraid of That