Transcript [00:00] Hey, I want to show you a debate or an [00:03] exchange between Konstantin Kissin and [00:07] this guy Bonnell. I think his name is [00:09] Steven Bonnell. He goes by the name [00:10] Destiny. And he's a popular debater. [00:14] And the reason I want to show it to you [00:15] is not because of the subject matter [00:17] they're debating, but because it [00:18] revealed something very powerful about [00:21] the culture and the civilization and the [00:24] moment that we're in and a lot of the [00:26] issues that we talk about about, you [00:28] know, preserving Western civilization [00:31] came clear to me watching this exchange. [00:35] Okay, so let's take a look and then I'll [00:37] have something to say about it. [00:40] Can national identity survive open [00:42] immigration? [00:44] I guess I'll Yeah, I'll take the Yeah, [00:46] I'll kind of take the reins on this. [00:48] Um I feel like when I hear people talk [00:49] about [00:51] things related to open borders, mass [00:53] migration, or national identity, there's [00:55] kind of two questions that always pop up [00:56] in my mind and I never hear people [00:57] actually kind of tack down what they [00:59] mean when they say these things. So, the [01:00] first thing is for national identity, I [01:03] don't know as much about the various [01:04] identities that exist in in the UK, but [01:05] I know for the United States [01:07] to try to find an overlap between [01:09] identity from a gay guy in San Francisco [01:11] versus like a a farmer in Iowa or [01:13] something is this it's not many [01:14] commonalities there [01:16] uh to to speak of when you talk about [01:17] national identity, especially when I'm [01:19] thinking of it in the context of what [01:20] type of immigrant would threaten that [01:23] whatever unified identity or whatever [01:24] those two things are. [01:26] Uh so, I'm kind of curious I guess when [01:27] I think about national identity, when I [01:29] think about it being threatened by [01:30] people, my my first question is what is [01:31] the national identity that we're trying [01:33] to protect for the United States or for [01:35] the United Kingdom? And then when we [01:38] talk about like migration or mass [01:40] migration, what do we mean exactly when [01:41] we say that? [01:44] Um well, okay. So, there's two questions [01:47] that what is national identity and what [01:49] is immigration? [01:50] Um why don't we start in reverse and [01:52] talk about immigration? Take Britain as [01:54] an example, right? Um so, I've lived in [01:56] this country I came to to Britain [01:58] from it was just about Russia prior to [02:01] that it was Soviet Union in 1996. [02:05] Uh so, let's go back to 1991 cuz that's [02:07] the data when we have the census. 1991, [02:10] what has happened in the last 35 years? [02:12] Um [02:13] So, in the last 35 years ago this [02:15] country had a population of 58 million [02:17] people. Today the population is 70 [02:19] million. Almost all of that is due to [02:22] mass immigration. So, the population of [02:24] Britain, the immigrant population of [02:25] Britain, that's first generation, people [02:27] who've arrived, went from 4 million to [02:29] 12 million in the space of 35 years, [02:31] right? Trebled in 35 years. Now, you [02:34] might say, well, you know, is that a [02:35] lot? Is that a little? Who knows? [02:37] Uh that is more people in in last 35 [02:40] years more people came to Britain than [02:42] came to Britain in the previous two [02:44] millennia. [02:46] So, more people in 35 years than had [02:48] come in 2,000 years. [02:50] Now, [02:52] that seems like quite a lot, right? Now, [02:54] we'll talk about some more facts about [02:56] this and then we can talk about national [02:57] identity. I'm going to take a little [02:59] time if you don't mind just to lay this [03:00] out. [03:01] >> just kind of poke around as you answer. [03:02] Yeah, but hold on let me just lay just [03:05] just let's talk about what we mean by [03:07] immigration, right? [03:08] >> Okay. Well, then also the mass cuz I cuz [03:09] I hear a lot of these words where I'll [03:10] be like it was a lot of people. Well, [03:12] hold on. I was like what does that mean? [03:13] Yeah. [03:13] >> I'm I'm Well, I'm explaining it. So, [03:14] more people in 35 years than 2,000 years [03:17] that sounds like quite a lot of people. [03:19] Is that [03:19] >> that fair? No, not really, right? [03:22] In the context like if I were to ask for [03:23] like the total growth of wealth compared [03:25] to like the last like 50 years might [03:27] also dwarf the last 2,000 years or the [03:29] total amount of carbon pollution or the [03:31] total amount of TV episodes or plays [03:33] written or songs written like I don't [03:34] know if I would just arbitrarily say I'm [03:36] going to look at immigration and I'm [03:37] going to measure it past some thousand [03:38] year thing or whatever. You don't think [03:40] that more people coming into a country [03:42] in 35 years than had come in the [03:44] previous 2,000 years is quite a lot. [03:47] I it I just think that that statement is [03:48] like vacuous and meaningless. When we [03:50] say quite a lot, what like should it [03:52] have been less? [03:53] Like what kind of immigrants shouldn't [03:54] have come? What does that mean? You're [03:56] making it into a moral conversation. I'm [03:58] talking about purely numbers. You might [04:00] think it's a great thing, right? Well, [04:02] to be clear I'm not talking just to be [04:03] clear I'm not talking moral. You said a [04:05] lot, yeah. You keep interrupting. So, [04:07] if we're talking about quite a lot, you [04:09] keep trying to make it a moral thing. [04:10] >> I'm not making it a moral thing. [04:12] We're going to If we're going to have a [04:13] conversation, you're going to have to [04:14] let me finish a sentence at least. [04:16] >> Don't misquote my position. [04:17] >> Okay, so just calm down for a bit. I'm [04:18] super calm. I know you've got your Red [04:20] Bull. Just have some more Red Bull. [04:21] >> am I am I am still super calm. Okay, [04:22] yeah. It's a very simple question, yeah. [04:24] If more people if we if if you're making [04:26] a moral issue, it becomes very clouded [04:28] and complicated. Let's just talk about [04:30] what we're talking about in terms of [04:31] pure numbers, right? If more people have [04:33] come into a country in 35 years than [04:36] have come in 2,000 years, that is [04:38] objectively a lot. Now, you might think [04:40] it's a good thing. Like I like ice cream [04:42] and if I eat a tub of ice cream, I'm not [04:44] going to say that's not a lot of ice [04:46] cream. I still like it, but it's a lot [04:48] of ice cream, right? We'd accept that. [04:50] It's more A scoop is not a lot of ice [04:52] cream, a tub is a lot of ice cream. So, [04:54] more people coming into a country in 35 [04:56] years than had come in 2,000 years is [04:58] objectively a lot of people, okay? Would [05:01] you To be clear when you say a lot, [05:02] that's a normative value that's with [05:04] respect to some kind of norm or mean [05:06] When you say a lot [05:07] >> The the pre Yeah, compared to before. [05:10] Yeah, that's objectively Yeah, that is [05:12] objectively true. It's just kind of a [05:14] meaningless statement like everything is [05:15] a lot more than the previous 2,000 [05:17] years. [05:17] >> true. I'm great. Correct, yes. That's a [05:19] meaningless statement, but yes. [05:20] >> Now that we've got that, um what does it [05:22] mean? Well, first of all, [05:24] think about it like this. Um [05:27] And again, it's not about whether you [05:29] you like it or not, whether you think [05:30] it's a good thing or not or a bad thing. [05:32] The big the three biggest cities in this [05:34] country [05:35] uh in the last 30 years have be have [05:37] ceased to be majority [05:40] inhabited by the people who are native [05:42] to this land. That's just a fact. And [05:43] I'm one of the people who's come here in [05:45] that time. So, I'm I'm not saying it's [05:47] a [05:48] only a terrible thing, but it's an [05:50] objective fact. Uh the three biggest [05:52] cities in the country are now majority [05:54] minority. Uh London And this happened [05:57] very quickly. London uh was 80% white [06:00] British in 1991. [06:02] It is probably around 30% white British [06:05] today. So, if you have seen that level [06:08] of change in the city in which you live, [06:10] think about this as well. Three quarters [06:12] of the people who live in this country [06:14] today are over the age of 35. So, all of [06:16] this has happened within the lifetime of [06:18] one generation effectively. Uh that is a [06:20] level of change that is A completely [06:22] unprecedented, B extremely [06:24] transformative, whether you like it or [06:26] not, good or bad, whatever you may [06:28] think. You might think, oh you know, [06:29] there might be kind of different kinds [06:30] of food is got better. It's true, [06:32] objectively. But it's also true [06:34] objectively that entire swathes of this [06:36] city are no longer inhabited by the [06:39] people who used to live here. [06:40] Again, this is an objective fact. You [06:42] can like it, you can dislike it, but [06:44] that is something that has happened. [06:45] This is true of London, it's true of [06:46] Manchester, it's true of Birmingham, and [06:48] it's true of several other smaller [06:49] cities in this country. By 2060 [06:53] according to current projections, white [06:54] British people will become a minority in [06:56] this country. [06:58] 2060 is the next 35 years. Right? Um [07:02] and that's [07:03] the entire kind of demographic [07:05] transformation. These are facts. Forget [07:06] about people's opinions, my opinion, [07:08] your opinion. Uh in terms of illegal [07:10] immigration, they're now almost a [07:11] million. We don't know exactly cuz it's [07:13] hard to measure, but we have almost a a [07:15] million illegal immigrants in Britain [07:17] today. Uh which can for a population of [07:19] 70 million is quite a lot. Um [07:22] and uh we currently spend 14 million [07:25] pounds a day spend. I'm not talking [07:27] about the cost to the taxpayer of having [07:29] a million illegal immigrants here. I'm [07:31] talking about how much we spend to [07:32] accommodate them and and all other [07:34] things. Now, 14 million is that a lot [07:37] per day? Quite a lot. [07:39] Uh but also this is happening [07:41] uh at an unprecedented rate. More people [07:43] come to Britain illegally today than [07:46] came illegally when I came here in 1996. [07:49] I'll say that again. More people come [07:50] here illegally every year than came here [07:53] in 1996 when I came here. That's a level [07:56] of change when it comes to illegal [07:58] immigration. And the cost of it, 14 [08:01] million pounds a day, is increased by a [08:03] factor of 10 in the last 10 years alone. [08:05] So, it's a thousand percent more than [08:07] what it was. Uh those are the facts [08:09] about immigration. So, when we talk [08:11] about immigration and whether it's [08:13] compatible with national identity, it [08:15] depends what we mean. If we're talking [08:17] about if, you know, 20, 30, 40,000 [08:20] people a year, highly selective from [08:23] compatible cultures as it used to be, [08:26] perfectly compatible and in fact I think [08:28] probably quite desirable. [08:30] If we're talking about what we've seen [08:31] over the last 30 years, I don't think [08:33] it's compatible with any sort of [08:35] national identity at all. Now, I've been [08:37] talking for a long time, so we can get [08:39] to national identity after you've [08:40] addressed that. Sure. So, I [08:42] I guess the thing that is a little bit [08:44] strange to me about the immigration [08:45] question is that sometimes I hear a [08:46] bunch of descriptions laid out and I [08:48] don't know exactly what I'm supposed to [08:49] do with them. There's often times a lack [08:51] of a prescriptive statement. It seems [08:52] like there's a little bit of fear of [08:54] committing to any particular idea about [08:56] what an ideal immigrant would look like. [08:58] And then it just it feels like we're [09:00] sometimes also lumping a ton of [09:01] immigrants together. So, for instance, [09:02] when we say there have been so many more [09:04] immigrants that have come here in the [09:05] past 30 35 years, but then we also [09:07] mention like illegal immigrants or [09:08] asylum seekers. These are all different [09:09] groups of people. So, I don't know I [09:11] separated them out. I talked about legal [09:13] immigration and illegal immigration, [09:15] right? I understand, but so the prompt [09:16] it has to do with basically can a can a [09:18] can a country's culture or whatever [09:20] survive mass migration. Illegal [09:22] immigrants are not mass migrating here. [09:24] The mass migration [09:25] >> They are. So, then [09:26] >> told you more illegal immigrants come [09:28] here every year now [09:30] than legal immigrants came here 30 years [09:32] ago. [09:32] >> I understand that, but but if you look [09:34] at the [09:34] >> migrating. So, then are the legal ones [09:36] mass mass migrating or what? Is it just [09:38] The legal immigrants are also mass [09:40] migrating. It's possible for them both [09:42] to be mass migrating. [09:42] >> to 1, right? So, So, comparing the two [09:45] is it seems like we're talking about [09:46] different kinds of We're probably [09:47] talking about different kinds of [09:48] immigrants when we talk about legal [09:49] versus illegal. [09:50] >> about both, yeah. No. [09:52] I'm talking about both. [09:54] You don't see any difference between a [09:56] legal immigrant versus an illegal [09:58] immigrant. Well, of course I do. Okay. [10:00] But they are both mass migrating here. [10:02] They're both coming here in [10:03] unprecedented numbers. Everything [10:06] definitionally is unprecedented as you [10:08] move forward in years. That's we have an [10:09] unprecedented amount of technology, an [10:10] unprecedented amount of energy [10:11] generation, an unprecedented amount of [10:12] like everything. [10:13] >> you might be confused about the meaning [10:14] of the word unprecedented. Unprecedented [10:16] >> Unprecedented is in it hasn't happened [10:17] at that level before, yeah. Right. So, [10:19] if we have immigration of 20,000 people [10:21] a year, that wouldn't be unprecedented [10:22] cuz we had that before. Yeah, but the [10:24] population is growing of the country, [10:26] the population of the rest of the planet [10:27] is growing, the economy is growing, [10:28] there's a whole bunch of other factors [10:29] at play. It's not like all else equal, [10:32] there's just 10 million people that have [10:33] shown up. [10:34] Like there's other factors at play at [10:36] all points in time as well. So, it's a [10:38] bit reductive to say like, well, we have [10:40] an unprecedented wave of whatever. [10:41] There's There's unprecedented things [10:42] happening definitionally every year [10:43] forward into the future we go. [10:45] >> That's nonsense. What What's the thing [10:47] that's been frozen in time? [10:48] >> just explained it to you. [10:49] >> Yes, you laid out a bunch of numbers and [10:50] I just explained why they're contextless [10:51] and and meaningless. But now I'm asking, [10:53] what is the thing that's unprecedented? [10:54] >> Look. Or or I'm sorry, what would be a [10:55] thing that is not changing in the past [10:57] 30 years? Like if you were to look at [10:58] something [10:58] >> One of the most amazing things of [11:00] arguing with anybody from your position [11:02] is the the the the extent to which they [11:04] refuse to understand what words mean. Um [11:07] I just explained to you repeatedly what [11:09] unprecedented means. It means that it [11:12] hasn't happened before. There have been [11:14] times in the history of this country [11:15] when its immigration was in the tens of [11:18] thousands, and for us to go back to that [11:20] would not be going back would not be [11:22] going forward to something [11:23] unprecedented. It would be returning to [11:26] something that we used to do. Sure. And [11:27] my question is [11:28] >> what has happened in the last 30 years [11:30] is unprecedented. Is there Is there [11:32] anything in US culture, in British [11:35] culture that has remained the same for [11:37] the past 30, 40, 50, 60 years, for the [11:40] past 100 years, that doesn't have an [11:42] unprecedented thing happening [11:43] Absolutely. I mean, that that is what a [11:45] culture is. It is what is preserved over [11:47] time. [11:49] How? [11:51] A culture is what people do without [11:53] having been told to do so by a law. Can [11:55] you Yeah, but what is What is an example [11:57] of a culture that is unchanging? Have [11:58] you How much have you traveled around [12:00] the world? [12:00] >> Probably more than you. Uh probably not, [12:02] actually. [12:03] >> Okay. I So, then you should be able to [12:05] very easily answer. What is an example [12:06] of a culture that exists [12:08] >> every time I try and answer your [12:08] question, you keep talking over me. [12:10] >> because when you answer, you ramble and [12:11] say irrelevant things. So, my my [12:13] question is [12:13] >> I ramble in half a sentence? You've been [12:15] saying plenty of sentences. Do you think [12:17] the speaking time up to this point is [12:18] even, or do you think you've spoken more [12:19] than me? I have spoken more than you, [12:21] but I haven't interrupted [12:21] >> You've had an opportunity to speak. You [12:22] just haven't answered my question. So, [12:23] my question is very simple. What's a [12:25] culture that you feel has been unchanged [12:27] for the past 50 years? Or What is an [12:29] example of cultural preservation? I feel [12:30] like cultures are evolving all the time. [12:32] It's definitionally a part of culture. [12:33] Of course. Cultures are evolving all the [12:35] time, but if you were to be plunged in [12:38] 1970s Afghanistan and 1990s Afghanistan [12:42] and and 2010s Afghanistan and 1950s [12:45] Britain, 1970s Britain and 2010s [12:47] Britain, there would be common themes [12:49] that run through both of those places so [12:51] that you would instantly recognize I am [12:54] in Afghanistan, I am in Britain. [12:57] Would you accept that? I agree that [12:58] different cultures are different, yes. [12:59] >> Right. Well done. Good. So, we've got [13:01] there, then. [13:03] Okay. [13:05] Um [13:06] Uh before we go on uh with what I have [13:08] to say about this, I just want to share [13:10] this, you know, obviously we all know [13:11] that there's a war going on and there [13:14] are many families across Israel. Kids [13:17] are at home from school [13:19] because the schools are closed because [13:20] of the air strikes [13:21] and that means that there's uh a lot [13:23] more stress on families. There's been a [13:26] big call-up of reservists, and that [13:27] means there's a lot of young mothers at [13:29] home with their children. And Israel 365 [13:32] has been at the forefront since the [13:33] beginning of the war of of taking care [13:36] of families, widows of fallen Israeli [13:39] soldiers [13:40] um [13:41] um wives of soldiers who are fighting in [13:43] reserves, and now dealing with people [13:45] with uh a lot of the needs of families [13:48] that are in places that have been that [13:50] have been attacked. In Beit Shemesh, the [13:52] town where I live uh many homes were [13:54] destroyed in a ballistic missile strike [13:56] that also killed [13:58] quite a number of people. There's a lot [13:59] of people suffering from PTSD. And for [14:01] all of these needs, Israel 365 is [14:03] stepping up with a charity project to [14:06] help those who are affected by this war. [14:08] So, if you go to israel365charity.com [14:11] israel365charity.com, [14:14] scroll down to the current projects, and [14:16] the first project there now is Israel at [14:18] war help now. [14:20] And uh you know, please donate now. It's [14:22] very important. It's very timely. And [14:25] it's a way that you can participate in [14:27] helping [14:28] uh in helping, you know, Israelis who [14:31] are struggling deal with what's [14:33] happening in the war right now. So, [14:34] please go ahead and do that. [14:35] israel365charity.com. [14:37] Now for what I have to say about this. [14:40] So [14:41] um [14:44] The real issue here isn't immigration. [14:46] Okay? [14:47] The And that's why I I didn't want to [14:49] talk about this video because because I [14:52] I wanted to talk about what they're [14:53] saying about immigration. What you're [14:55] seeing here is a clash between [14:58] two completely different ways of [15:00] thinking about reality. And I learned a [15:02] lot about like the problems we're [15:04] having, like [15:05] you know, people on the right like [15:06] myself, you look at people on the left [15:07] and you're like, what do we [15:09] how can we even talk to these people? [15:11] So, Constantine here was doing something [15:13] very simple. He's describing observable [15:15] facts. He's saying, here are the [15:17] numbers, here's the demographic change [15:20] here's the speed at which it happened. [15:22] And Destiny's response is fascinating. [15:25] Right? He doesn't really challenge the [15:26] facts. Instead, he challenges whether [15:29] the facts mean anything. You hear it [15:31] over and over again. Is that really a [15:33] lot? What does a lot mean? Everything's [15:36] unprecedented. What is culture anyway? [15:38] Can you define it? All of these [15:40] questions are not arguments about [15:42] immigration. They're a philosophical [15:44] method. [15:45] And this is very much the postmodern [15:47] method. [15:49] It's how we got to where we are in our [15:51] culture. The goal of this method is not [15:54] to prove that something is good or bad. [15:57] The goal is to make it impossible to [15:59] have a judgment about whether anything [16:02] is good or bad. [16:04] I hope that made sense. Let me explain. [16:08] Let's just watch what happens step by [16:09] step in this video. Constantine says [16:11] more people came in 35 years than in the [16:14] previous 2,000 years. [16:16] Destiny responds by saying [16:18] not that that's wrong, but instead he [16:20] says that it's meaningless. [16:22] Why? [16:24] Because the word a lot supposedly [16:25] requires a normative framework. In other [16:28] words, unless we can produce some [16:31] perfectly precise philosophical [16:32] definition of a lot [16:35] the observation itself becomes [16:36] meaningless. Okay, this is classic [16:38] relativism. [16:40] What you do basically is you take a [16:42] normal human observation that every [16:44] normal person would immediately [16:46] understand, like, oh, that smells bad, [16:48] or that smells good, right? And you [16:50] dissolve it into an endless semantic [16:52] fog. [16:53] And you notice what happens when [16:54] Constantine moves to the topic of [16:56] culture. [16:58] Right? Destiny says, well, what's [16:59] culture? Can you define it? Give me an [17:00] example of a culture that doesn't [17:02] change. [17:04] Again, the strategy [17:06] Destiny's strategy isn't to understand [17:08] the concept. [17:10] Right? The strategy is to make the [17:11] concept impossible to define and [17:15] therefore impossible to even talk about. [17:19] Right? If culture changes, then culture [17:20] doesn't exist. [17:22] If a lot requires a philosophical [17:24] framework, then nothing is a lot. If [17:26] identity is complicated [17:28] well, then identity is meaningless. [17:31] Right? That's the intellectual move. [17:35] And it's the reason that conversations [17:36] between what we call conservatives and [17:38] progressives often feel like we're [17:40] speaking completely different languages. [17:43] Right? Traditional thinking, what we [17:44] would call conservative thinking, [17:46] unfortunately, that's what we would call [17:47] it today, it assumes something very [17:50] basic. [17:51] Reality exists. Human beings can observe [17:54] it, and there are judgments that people [17:56] can make about it that are just [17:58] rational, and they make sense, and and [18:00] their truth just lies in the fact that [18:02] they are [18:04] observable and universal. [18:07] Right? We could disagree about those [18:09] judgments, but the judgments themselves [18:11] are legitimate judgments. [18:13] Progressive postmodern thinking works [18:15] very differently. [18:17] It treats every concept as unstable, [18:19] every definition is arbitrary, every [18:21] judgment is suspect. [18:24] Right? So, instead of debating what's [18:25] true or what is good, which is what [18:28] philosophers used to do, the debate [18:30] shifts to whether anything can be [18:32] defined or judged at all. [18:35] Once you reach that point [18:38] any discussion, any basis for discussion [18:40] just collapses. [18:42] Cuz if nothing can be defined then [18:44] nothing can be evaluated. And if nothing [18:46] can be evaluated, then [18:48] every everything is equally meaningless. [18:51] That's what you're seeing in this [18:52] exchange. That's why I thought it was so [18:53] helpful, cuz when we talk about concepts [18:55] like postmodernism and moral relativism, [18:57] sometimes they're hard to pinpoint. And [18:58] here in this exchange, you actually see [19:00] it. You see it on display. [19:03] Because this wasn't a debate about [19:04] immigration. [19:06] It was a debate about whether we we can [19:09] have a debate about immigration. It was [19:11] a debate about whether we can even [19:13] understand the world we live in. [19:16] And that's the deeper problem here. You [19:17] see, if you can't define your [19:19] civilization [19:21] don't be surprised [19:23] when you have no will to defend it. [19:27] All right, thanks for watching, [19:28] everyone. [19:29] Uh I hope you're finding these videos [19:30] helpful. Please drop me a comment, let [19:32] me know what you think of what I had to [19:33] say here. [19:34] And uh any advice you have for me to [19:36] improve the channel, improve what I'm [19:37] doing, I I try to read as many comments [19:39] as I can. [19:40] Thank you so much. Keep watching. God [19:43] bless.
